Curse

Russell.Crowe · Sep 09, 2006, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Imo you got lucky you found someone who wanted that skin and those mods and had no problem to pay for them.

Na I wouldn't call it lucky if you know what mods to put on things, its also all about how you sell it

People will pay that extra for convenience(saved time)

Fluffyx · Sep 09, 2006, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

People should know by now that custom upgrades don't influence the value of a weapon that much. Skin, inherent mod and req do. So sell that 20/20 and +30hp seperetaly, you'll get much more that way.

Just want to inform you that's all, in the end it's up to you.

When buying an item with upgrades such as fort or a damage mod I will pay for them respectively. Lets say +30hp is selling for 40k and i'm buying a req10 something for 100k I would add 40k onto the buying price and thats all. Though I rarely buy items that are already upgraded with perfect mods seeing as they're not always the ones I want.

If you're buying an expensive weapon and dont understand that skin, req, and inherent mods are what determines the true value of the item then you shouldn't even be purchasing the weapon anyway. That is my opp.

wilderness · Sep 09, 2006, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell.Crowe

its also all about how you sell it

It's mostly about right place right time. Regardless of your sell strategy IG, 95% of your potential buyers will be timewasters.

And to those who complain that a +30 is gone in one hit, the +30 was added to the bottom of your health, not the top

/off topic

And yes, 20/20 is nice for spiking, but I fail to see how it's retained it's supposed Leet status. Next to other components, it pales significantly.

+30 however, is teh sex.

Spallenzani · Sep 09, 2006, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxterduke

I would like to add that 20/20 mods are crap and everyone with a sound mind will change that mod.
I got a 15>50 fell that has 20/19 on it and changed it for furious 10%.

Um, you do realize that if Sundering is crap, Furious is super crap?

As for the OP, I'm not so sure that these upgrades are a waste. Sure, on a purely logical level, purchasing and adding mods shouldn't effect the value of item beyond the cost of the mods themselves - after all, the buyer could just as easily purchase his or her own mods for the weapon. But marketing isn't always logical.

Adding expensive mods to a rare skin may help attract more attention to the item - it may bump that item up from say, 90k with no mods, to 180k with mods. And this may happen even if the mods themselves aren't worth the difference, because more attention generally means more bids, and more bids often means a higher sale price.

One other reason might be convenience. If the buyer was planning to upgrade this skin with expensive mods anyway, he or she might be willing to pay a little bit extra for the luxury of not having to spend time finding the mods.

I'm not saying this is always true. In fact, it might never be true - I don't know. But the OP provided no argument to convince me that it isn't true. The fact that almost every high end weapon for sale - on trade forums, auction sites, or in-game spam - has a perfect 20/20 sundering mod and a perfect +30 fortitude mod provides some evidence that investing in expensive mods does increase the value of a rare skin beyond the cost of the mods themselves.

Savio · Sep 09, 2006, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilderness

And yes, 20/20 is nice for spiking

No it's not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spallenzani

The fact that almost every high end weapon for sale - on trade forums, auction sites, or in-game spam - has a perfect 20/20 sundering mod and a perfect +30 fortitude mod...

...shows that a large portion of sellers and buyers are idiots who want epeen-boosting weapons. But then again I suppose that's not all too uncommon nowadays, especially with eBayers. Thankfully not all of the market is composed of these people.

Spallenzani · Sep 09, 2006, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

...shows that a large portion of sellers and buyers are idiots who want epeen-boosting weapons.

How does it show that sellers are idiots? If buyers are willing to pay more for a pre-modded skin than it costs to buy an un-modded skin and the two mods, wouldn't it be idiotic for sellers not to pre-mod their rare skin items before sale?

Again, there is evidence that nearly all sales of rare skin, high end weapons (100k+) come with expensive max mods. This may be evidence that all sellers except for the enlightened few in this thread are idiots, but isn't it more likely that these sellers know something about the market that we may not know?

Consumers are not always rational. Sellers are irrational if they ignore this fact and refuse to take advantage of irrational consumer preferences.

Savio · Sep 09, 2006, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spallenzani

How does it show that sellers are idiots? If buyers are willing to pay more for a pre-modded skin than it costs to buy an un-modded skin and the two mods, wouldn't it be idiotic for sellers not to pre-mod their rare skin items before sale?

Again, there is evidence that nearly all sales of rare skin, high end weapons (100k+) come with expensive max mods.

There is evidence that people are selling 20/20 +30 weapons for obscene prices, but evidence of them sold for those prices is lacking. Show some proof that weapons with perfect mods are consistently sold for more than the weapons and mods sold separately.

Spallenzani · Sep 09, 2006, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

There is evidence that people are selling 20/20 +30 weapons for obscene prices, but evidence of them sold for those prices is lacking. Show some proof that weapons with perfect mods are consistently sold for more than the weapons and mods sold separately.

The burden of proof isn't on me. I said earlier in this thread that the OP may be right - but he or she provided no evidence either way.

My observation is that nearly all sale offers of high end, rare skin weapons include 20/20 and +30 mods. Is it possible that this observation only applies to the sale offers, but not the actual sales? Sure. But I have no reason to believe this to be the case. If these sale offers for "obscene prices" don't actually result in successful sales, I would expect to see far fewer unreasonable offers. Why would so many sellers bother to waste time and money modding if it didn't actually make them money?

I'm not going to do a scholarly, econometric analysis to prove this point. I think the observation is reasonable enough, and certainly more substantial than any evidence provided in this thread to support the opposite conclusion.

N E D M · Sep 09, 2006, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mynghul

And +30 gets better when you have morale, whereas +5 stays the same.

Um what?
+30 still only gives u 30 more health , even with 10% morale boost.

I don't really get what you meant when you said this. . . .

Spallenzani · Sep 09, 2006, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Mynghul might have incorrectly assumed that the morale bonus applies after the effects of runes and weapon upgrades. It doesn't. Moral (and Death Penalty) are applied before the effects of runes and weapon upgrades.

CalypsoX · Sep 09, 2006, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Here's a rather crude way to judge whether the 20/20 +30 mods actually do anything. Go to the guru auctions, search on high-end auctions that have closed and see what prices people are paying for them (this is of course assuming the transaction actually happened). It's no where near representative, but it's some data to work with. Just based on my observations, high-end items usually go for higher on guru auction than if they were sold in-game, since the buyer has the opportunity to bargain, whereas in auctions, the price can only go up.

Savio · Sep 09, 2006, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spallenzani

I think the observation is reasonable enough, and certainly more substantial than any evidence provided in this thread to support the opposite conclusion.

Translation: I don't care what anyone can prove, I'm just going to state something and it's right no matter what. Glad you feel that way, but it makes for crappy discussion.

Now to contribute something actually worthwhile to the thread: Let's take a look at 15^50 Mursaat Hammers sold (or at least didn't have any new offers or bumps) in the High End forum or in Auctions over the past few weeks.
(@Calypso: I was running searches for a few hours before you suggested this; pain in the ass is all I can say.)

req 8, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 100k+65e
req 8, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 100k+60e
req 8, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 100k+60e
req 8, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 400k (~100k+43e)
req 8, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 600k (~100k+63e)
req 8, 10% furious, +30 health = 390k (~100k+42e)
req 8, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 620k (~100k+75e)
req 9, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 550k (100k+65e)

req 9, zealous, +29 health = 100k+30e
req 9, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 100k+25e
req 9, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 100k+38e
req 9, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 250k (~100k+22e)
req 9, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 260k (~100k+23e)
req 9, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 349k (~100k+36e)

req 10, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 100k+10e
req 10, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 210k (~100k+16e)

req 11, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 100k+6e
req 11, 20/20 sundering, +29 health = 100k+7e
req 11, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 100k+11e
req 11, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 260k (~100k+23e)

req 12, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 180k (~100k+12e)

Things of note:
People often remove the b/o price when someone takes the b/o. That eliminated a good portion of threads. Damn you Sell forum people.

The few times that "nonperfect" weapons were sold, they received comparable offers to other "perfect" weapons. Powertraders (such as the OP) are probably seeing this trend too, though that's hard to back up with solid evidence.

Also, I found b/o's for non-15^50 weapons with perfect mods to be 1. really high (sometimes even higher than comparable 15^50 weapons), and 2. not getting any offers. So at the very least, stop sticking good mods on crappy weapons.

I'd look for more data, but I'm having difficulty finding a good weapon skin that is costly and has abundant threads/auctions here.

Arya Nibelrund · Sep 09, 2006, 10:06 AM // 10:06

I'll add mine: req 9 +15^50 29hp 10% furious (that's how it dropped): sold for 100+20 ectos (could have been easily more, but I wanted to sell fast and refused offers over buyout cause im a good trader

)

wilderness · Sep 09, 2006, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spallenzani

The fact that almost every high end weapon for sale - on trade forums, auction sites, or in-game spam - has a perfect 20/20 sundering mod and a perfect +30 fortitude mod provides some evidence that investing in expensive mods does increase the value of a rare skin beyond the cost of the mods themselves.

Not at all. Spend as much time as I have in Ventari's Sell and buying and selling in game and you'll realise how false that statement truely is.

Weapons with 20/20 and +30 almost never go over the estimated value of the base item iteslf and the components included.

Example: Would a Weapon trader Blue Katana from Kaineng with a 20/20 +30 on it be worth 125k?

It doesn't work that way. Most buyers will want to customize the weapon to suit thier own needs anyway, so would be unwilling to pay the full combined value.

The only time it's ever even nearly worth putting a 20/20 +30 on an item for sale is if it's an ultra rare skin. ie: Dwarven Axe, Serpent Axe, Crystaline as it looks more impressive with the most amount of money invested in it, will attract the maximum amount of potential buyers (Including those who are only turned on by the 20/20 +30 combination) and when you're speaking about millions, 120k is insignificant.

Of course, the fact that there are people in this thread who claim 20/20 and +30 compnents retain their full value once attached is evidence that these transactions do happen, but these people are only ripping themselves off. But if they want to pay 420k for my 20/20 +30 Fellblade I won't complain.

There are also people out there who think greens are better/more valuable than golds. Guild wars is full of misinformed/ignorant players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalypsoX

Here's a rather crude way to judge whether the 20/20 +30 mods actually do anything. Go to the guru auctions, search on high-end auctions that have closed and see what prices people are paying for them (this is of course assuming the transaction actually happened). It's no where near representative, but it's some data to work with. Just based on my observations, high-end items usually go for higher on guru auction than if they were sold in-game, since the buyer has the opportunity to bargain, whereas in auctions, the price can only go up.

You're right, it's no where near representative.

Gun Pierson · Sep 09, 2006, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Ok for those people who think there must be a science behind my statement...I repeat once more: The value of a weapon is based on SKIN, REQ and INHERENT MODS. It's not something I found out, I'm just a messenger. It is the way amongst price checkers and people who regurarly, if not daily spend time on the price check forums and who know the value of weapons and have a lot of xp in the weapon market. If those people are wrong, then you shouldn't use their price guides too, but you do don't cha. And if you don't, you have no idea what I or they are talking about. If that's the case you shouldn't post your wishful thinking that mods increase the value of a weapon. That doesn't mean you can't always try to oversell your weapon.

wilderness · Sep 09, 2006, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Translation: I don't care what anyone can prove, I'm just going to state something and it's right no matter what. Glad you feel that way, but it makes for crappy discussion.

Now to contribute something actually worthwhile to the thread: Let's take a look at 15^50 Mursaat Hammers sold (or at least didn't have any new offers or bumps) in the High End forum or in Auctions over the past few weeks.
(@Calypso: I was running searches for a few hours before you suggested this; pain in the ass is all I can say.)

req 8, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 100k+65e
req 8, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 100k+60e
req 8, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 100k+60e
req 8, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 400k (~100k+43e)
req 8, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 600k (~100k+63e)
req 8, 10% furious, +30 health = 390k (~100k+42e)
req 8, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 620k (~100k+75e)
req 9, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 550k (100k+65e)

req 9, zealous, +29 health = 100k+30e
req 9, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 100k+25e
req 9, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 100k+38e
req 9, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 250k (~100k+22e)
req 9, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 260k (~100k+23e)
req 9, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 349k (~100k+36e)

req 10, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 100k+10e
req 10, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 210k (~100k+16e)

req 11, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 100k+6e
req 11, 20/20 sundering, +29 health = 100k+7e
req 11, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 100k+11e
req 11, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 260k (~100k+23e)

req 12, 20/20 sundering, +30 health = 180k (~100k+12e)

Things of note:
People often remove the b/o price when someone takes the b/o. That eliminated a good portion of threads. Damn you Sell forum people.

The few times that "nonperfect" weapons were sold, they received comparable offers to other "perfect" weapons. Powertraders (such as the OP) are probably seeing this trend too, though that's hard to back up with solid evidence.

Also, I found b/o's for non-15^50 weapons with perfect mods to be 1. really high (sometimes even higher than comparable 15^50 weapons), and 2. not getting any offers. So at the very least, stop sticking good mods on crappy weapons.

I'd look for more data, but I'm having difficulty finding a good weapon skin that is costly and has abundant threads/auctions here.

We already know that most sales occur with 20/20 +30s attached. And we already know that a lot of people consider these items truely 'perfect' and so they'll probably sell more often when customized in this way. Also, an item with the maximum amount of platinum invested in it will seem to most buyers as the best deal. That is what we're discussing. The discussion is: Do 20/20 +30 retain their values once attached? Hammers are a very bad example. With hammers, these mods only cost 25k at most for both while the base skin can be worth up to 500k by itself, so what are we learning here?

Also, 90% of mursaat hammers will have a 20/20 +30 attached as they are so cheap and it covers all bases when searching for potential buyers.

Also, the Auction site is a very inaccurate source of reference. With fake bids, self bumps and ego bids rife, a b/o bid there can not be used as meaningful evidence. The hi-end auction is much easier to moniter for such abuses.

When you can provided the same evidence with swords where the combined value of the mods equates to almost half of the base items value, then you'll be making a valid point.

Savio · Sep 09, 2006, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilderness

When you can provided the same evidence with swords where the combined value of the mods equates to almost half of the base items value, then you'll be making a valid point.

I just threw it out there because I'd already ran a search on it, couldn't find anything else significant, and didn't feel like deleting what I had. It doesn't really prove anything on the topic at hand, though I did notice a few things about sellers that I wouldn't have seen just glancing through (and closing threads

). If 20/20 +30 is the norm, how do you go about proving that those mods increase the price above nonexistant non-perfectly modded weapons?

(And if all these weapons have 20/20 and +30 mods, why the hell are those mods still worth anything? It seems like they're as common as white items nowadays. But I digress...)

wilderness · Sep 09, 2006, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

If 20/20 +30 is the norm, how do you go about proving that those mods increase the price above nonexistant non-perfectly modded weapons?

This topic only really applies to standard rare skin weapons (By standard I mean items around 200-500k) as hi end rares can go into the millions and then 120k for two perfect components doesn't really mean a great deal.

If we take the Baseline Pricing on Rare Skinned Weapons as an example, and look on the list for the estimated values of Fellblades, you'll notice that they're bracketed. Now at first glance it appears the prices here correlate with the idea that 20/20s and +30s retain their full value once attached.

A req8 15^50 for instance is estimated at 200-300k. (The bracket is there for a reason, and it has such a wide range as there are many different versions of the same itm out there, and obviously some versions are considered more valuable than others. So the components do count for something.)

Example: a perfectly clean req8 15^50 fell will most likely sit toward the lower end of the bracket, while a 20/20 +30 will sit toward the higher end. So in theory, you if you can purchase both components for 100k, you'll make your money back ..

The risk here is that you'll only ever break even. But the truth is, clean items mostly sell for somewhere in the middle of the estimated values, so 90% of the time, you'll loose at least half of the money you've invested if you add a 20/20 and a +30.

--

Ergo: Components do add value to clean skins, there's no question in that, but the increase is minimal when compared to the amount you've invested in the components themselves.

Benefits for making your item 'perfect' (20/20 +30):
-Will attract more attention, so you're more likely to make a faster sale.
-you're more likely to get the full estimated value for your skin this way.

Cons:
-You'll most likely lose at least 50% of the money you've invested in components.

Benefits for selling the base item and 'perfect' (20/20, +30) components seperately:
-You may maxmimise the potential sale value of each item.
-The components will be an easier sell this way.

Cons:
-The base item will attract less interest, and it will be a harder sale.

--

This information is based off my own experience buying and selling and Price Checking and is in no way definitive, but I do think it's a good estimate of the way the market is working when considering 20/20 and +30 components.

The Herbalizer · Sep 09, 2006, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Wow, well....

If say a Req 8 Longsword 15>50 is worth 40k ish. Then the person is like, "OMG if I mod this it will be worth hundreds of thousands of gold." So he adds a +30 Hp and 20/20 Sundering upgrades onto it. Lets say they cost 50k each so the sword is worth 40k and the upgrades are worth 100k. However, I truely doubt that the person will get 140k for it.

At the end of the day you will only reduce the amount of potential customers. Some people may want Vamp upgrades, others Elemental, some Furious. Not everyone wants Fortitude upgrades either, some may want Slaying, others Armor and maybe +1 20% upgrades.

I have never and will never mod a weapon purely for selling it. Sometimes when some really rare item appears ill pay for it whether it is modded or not. Modding weapons with certain perfect mods is only going to get people who want those exact mods purchasing them. Who wants to pay more for that 20/20 Sunder when you want to use an Ebony upgrade.

wilderness · Sep 09, 2006, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Just to clarify a few points from above, in case of any misunderstandings ..

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Herbalizer

If say a Req 8 Longsword 15>50 is worth 40k ish. Then the person is like, "OMG if I mod this it will be worth hundreds of thousands of gold." So he adds a +30 Hp and 20/20 Sundering upgrades onto it. Lets say they cost 50k each so the sword is worth 40k and the upgrades are worth 100k. However, I truely doubt that the person will get 140k for it.

Agreed. See my point about the katana a few posts up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Herbalizer

At the end of the day you will only reduce the amount of potential customers.

Not quite. You'll reduce the amount of potential customers willing to pay the combined values of the base item and it's components.

Say you're offering a Fellblade req8 15^50 20/20 +30 at a fair price (one that would be accepted with or without the 20/20+30) then your sword will have more chance of a faster sale. If most were offered the choice of a fellblade with a 20/20 and a +30 against a fell with a zealous and a +5 armor for the same cost, I'm pretty sure they'd take the more expensive version.

You're also more likely tp hit the top of the item's estimated value as someone looking for a 20/20 +30 sword will be willing to pay the combined values. Note that this trade (unless you're very lucky) will take quite a while to happen.

Remember, this isn't about what's the sensible thing to do, it's about how the sales actually happen with a lot of people assuming only 20/20 +30 is perfect.